Dolly DeLong: Hello and welcome back to another podcast episode of the Systems and Workflow Magic Podcast. I am your systems workflow and launching BFF and Guide Dolly. And today I’m really excited to have a new friend on the podcast, Kujo. Now, a little bit about Kujo before he comes on. He is the host of the art. Of Online Business Podcast with over 869 episodes and you all 5.02 million downloads.
That is a lot. He’s also a meta ads manager and an online business strategist specializing in serving, established online course creators with annual earnings ranging from a quarter of a million to over a million dollars. So. Even though I like mentioned all this, please don’t tune me out, especially if you’re a brand new business owner.
Like this episode will still be for you. ’cause he’s gonna, um, have a lot of good, nuggets of wisdom when it comes to Facebook ads. So, unlike most ads managers, he doesn’t just bring in quality leads. With over three years of experience, he excels in optimizing funnels and providing marketing, sales, operations, and hiring guidance.
All of which have enabled his clients to work less, earn more, and live the life they weren’t meant to live for. okay. And this is like a fun fact about Kujo since January of 2020. He and his family have lived in Central Mexico again with his wife and his two kids after an ill time vacation right before the pandemic started ending his 12 years of living in China.
So he speaks fluent Mandarin Chinese. Decent Spanish and firmly believes that everyone should experience international travel and engage with different cultures. I will clap to that. That’s so true. So Kujo, welcome to the Systems and Workflow Magic podcast. It’s really great to have you on.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Thank you, Dolly. It’s an honor to be here with you.
Dolly DeLong: I am really excited when you reached out to me. I feel like I was sharing with you right before we hit record. I feel like I’ve just learned so much about you through other people, like hearing you on other people’s podcasts and, seeing you online. The online world, everyone is smaller than you think.
Like you just meet a lot of great people online. But, when he, he, him and his wife actually. Pitched to be on the podcast and I was like, no way. I, ’cause I listened to your podcast and um, it was good to I know, like build another online relationship and make another friend online. And I knew, I really wanted you to talk to my listeners about, taking the intimidating topic of meta ads and just like simplifying it for us because like I was sharing Before I hit record, I have listeners who fit into three different categories. Um, listeners, you might be a, a new business owner and you want to know like where to start out with systems and workflows, or you might be more intermediate and advanced and you just want some sort of strategy to go forth with or.
You are a family photographer and you know I’m a family photographer and you wanna merge. How do I get started with systems and workflows from my photography business? So either way, like Kujo is going to simplify and demystify Facebook meta ads, for us and make it not as scary and make it more approachable because I will raise my hand and say I am terrified.
Of meta ads, like everything up until this point for me has been organic marketing. I do have a Google Ads manager for my business and like I finally offset that. I’m like, and it’s, it’s great. It’s working great, but I’ve always wanted to dip my toes into meta ads, but. It’s just so intimidating and overwhelming to me, so I’m like, I need an expert to walk me through this, to counsel me through this and maybe we could help encourage other business owners too.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Hmm. Sounds good. well, I can’t wait to answer some of the questions that I know you have prepared. ’cause I saw the document I. And I think it would be good here to say that I started off in China running ads the wrong way. And you know, it got me famous true story of, expats, expatriates, you know, non-Chinese folks who were working abroad in China.
Maybe three to four out of 10 on the streets would recognize my face and that was great, but. You and I both know that unfortunately, not all Instagram followers, you know, end up turning into customers and clients that we can help. And
so from that to getting stuck outside of China and in Mexico and pivoting to working with Facebook ads, it’s like I’m on a mission to help folks.
Read the right business signs so that they can start meta ads, Facebook and Instagram ads in a profitable way so that, because I could feel, I, well not feel, I believe that you and I were put here on earth to serve people with specific skills, you know, and passions and gifts that we have. And if we’re reaching more people in a profitable way, then our businesses are benefiting.
Yes. But they also are benefiting from the thing that we were meant to teach. And so. It’s a, it’s a cool situation.
Dolly DeLong: Well, where a, a good place then to start is what are some foundational systems a business owner should have in place before they dive into meta ads? Because here’s why. I know from my experience, here’s why I’m afraid of meta ads. I just. There have been two times in my business where I’ve, I’m like, okay, I’ll just do meta ads, and then I would just throw money into putting something together, and I had no idea what I was doing.
I didn’t know what, like I, I just didn’t know any of the parameters. Like looking back. And so that put a bad taste in my mouth. And then I hear people are like, Facebook ads are amazing. I’m like, no, they’re not. But then I have to remember, okay, Dolly, you just like threw money at ads without really like laying out a good foundation first.
So this is why I was like, okay, we should we just ask an ask expert and ask his opinion on what are some good foundational systems.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Well, the good news for like the listener right now is that if we think about Facebook and Instagram ads the right way, then a lot of when should I start, what should I have in place system-wise? Kind of makes sense. So let’s look at like a brick and mortar store, right? It’s like asking like what should they have in place?
Before they start marketing, however they’re doing it. Flyers, you know, the billboards, you know, the, those little bus advertisements on the back of like,
Dolly DeLong: The people that hold the signs, the flippy signs?
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: there you go. I always liked those folks. Um, and so you want to have a system that sells your offer. However it is, if this is photography that you provide, like you wanna have a system that brings in the leads. And nurtures them. If you’re dealing with like discovery calls as your main method of client acquisition, then you need a system hopefully automated that brings in a lead and schedules a call with you.
And if you’re dealing with, let’s say, what I consider more of a course creator type online business, then a system that brings in leads, nurtures that lead, and lets that lead know that you’re open for business or nurtures them into a launch. Just that system. We’re talking email scheduler. Where should we go from here?
Dolly DeLong: A good place. I was thinking to start with that would be like in terms of family photographers as being a concrete example, let’s say they want to get I feel like everybody’s like, I want better qualified leads. okay, yes, but how would they get qualified leads after they set up their system of, okay, they set up their scheduler. Through their CRM, they have the automated email set up. They have all of that set up, but what is that next tangible step then of deciding, okay, do I try to find qualified leads?
Like do I try to, book out a specific type of session? Like what should I do with these meta ads?
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Mm. So a good use of the meta ads is what is the most profitable lead. Or type of person, type of customer. For my business, I, I’m, I’m thinking in photographer, I’ve never done photography. I’m just putting myself in a photographer’s shoes. Do you have different types of photography packages? If you’re thinking about what’s the most valuable to your business, one additional question you want to ask is, okay, but when people first come to do business with you.
Do they sign up for that most valuable thing, or is there some sort of organic funnel like folks come for this mini package first and then because they love what I do, I don’t know, for their senior graduate pictures, then they end up, you know, booking me for the next thing. Right? And so to attract more of the right customer, we really want to make sure we’re asking some good qualifying questions on that intake form.
Dolly DeLong: Mm.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: That someone’s filling out because we all know the folks who, and this, the assumption here is that you’re already doing quite well with your photography business, and that’s why you’re considering having Facebook and meta ads. Because if we’re still figuring out the offer and we’re still figuring out how to make this work, I always say, Jesus saves Facebook and Instagram ads do not.
And so. More right.
Dolly DeLong: I love that. I love that. Um, that’s a great pull quote right there. I, I, I really, yeah. Wanna stop and go back just a little bit by reminding listeners if you don’t yet have, like your main packages hashed out, you don’t know who you wanna serve yet, and you’re like desperately I just need to make money.
I just need to like book out clients. I would say slow down, figure out. kind of like your copy and messaging and who you want to attract because your messaging does that. Your, your val knowing what your values are and inserting that in your copy. That really. Draws the right people to you. Of course, the visuals for family photographers, for photographers in general, knowing like what type of photography attracts what type of client, have those in place and then like you were saying, like then you are ready for ads.
Otherwise you could fall into that category of past Dolly Dyke. I knew I wanted to sell out of something, but I didn’t yet know like all of those key essential pieces before I started throwing money at ads. And so that is where you’ll start getting a bad taste in your mouth from ads. And then you made a great point.
Like Jesus is the only person that can save you the meta ads and all the Instagram ads won’t save. That is such that, that is a good reminder that we shouldn’t like just be like, okay, this is gonna be my saving grace for my business. I love that.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Yeah. And so going further down that line or that line of thought is the offer that we have selling profitably. And you know, I’m holding my hands up like this. Let me make sure that I can see, right? And so I have my hand up at my forehead and I have another hand kind of down by my chest. And so what the gap between these two hands represents a profit gap.
And so we wanna look at this top hand. This would be our leads that are coming in and we want to take, let’s say month by month or every quarter, you know, what is the amount of revenue I’m generating per lead? That is a big important question, and maybe this is a new concept. Cool. Here’s how we measure that In three months, how much money did my business generate?
Okay, great. Now we’re gonna back down that number until we get to how much money a lead is worth. So if I have a photography business and people have to hop on a phone call with me, is that how we do it, Dolly?
Dolly DeLong: I usually don’t do phone calls.
Um,
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: me. Tell me what’s that step.
Dolly DeLong: okay, so for me, I try to make the beginning as. Automated as possible. So they fill out, they reach out to me via contact form via dub sodo. They self-select what family photography packages they’re interested in on the backend. I’ve automated it to fit their self-selection, and then they get an automated email with all the packages that like cater to that selection.
Then my touch point is I send a Loom video over so that they can meet me. And, and reminding them, Hey, look over the packages and then let me know how you would like to move forward. but I do know, like wedding photographers do a lot of phone calls because that’s a higher investment. So I also think it’s like also with investment, how much prices?
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: well, we’ll break it down according to the funnel that you said. So I heard dub sole form, that’s the interest form, if you will, and they self-select there. The next step was an email gets sent out, automated, and then you do a wonderfully customized loom to them, and at that point they watch your loom and then they buy a package.
Dolly DeLong: And then they decide, yeah, they reach out to me and say, thank you for letting me know. I, we are gonna go with package number three. Or we found another photo. Photo, like it’s either yes or no. And then we move on from there.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: All right. So then we can track the money through those steps. So in three months, you know, to get a good average, we generated X amount of revenue.
Dolly DeLong: Mm-hmm.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Now we want to back up in the funnel and say, okay. That means people came and they purchased the packages, you know, and to get that revenue great. But everybody that I sent a loom to purchased a package, some said no.
So then I want to look at the percentage of people in those three months that I sent out a Loom video to. And say well, what was the percentage of those folks that actually purchased a package? And then I use that percentage to back up the revenue. So I know that every Loom video on average, that’s why it’s good to look at three months is worth this much to me.
Right.
Dolly DeLong: I know the percentage. For me, my closing rate is normally 75%.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: All right, so let’s just say, I don’t know, a round number, like a hundred thousand dollars, and then we’ll back up to the loom phase, right? 75% of the people that get a loom in the purchasing. So what’s 75% of a thou? A hundred thousand dollars. A hundred grand at 75 grand. Right?
Dolly DeLong: Mm-hmm.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Cool. So now we know. You know, according to averages that every loom video you send out is worth $75,000.
Great. Cool. What’s the previous step before that? Because the emails are automated, so everyone that fills out the Dubs auto form, gets an email. So like, I want to know what’s the percentage of people that fill out the Dubs auto form that actually respond to the loom or purchase a package.
Let’s go further back in that funnel.
Dolly DeLong: Oh man, I should know these numbers.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: it’s okay. Let’s just say 50%. All right, so like, we’ll back up that to, um, well, it’s probably a little lower. Let’s just say 30% for the example of this podcast. So let’s say it’s 30% of the people that start that fill out the dub solid form, actually purchase a package.
So then backing up from a hundred thousand dollars, we can say that every dubs auto form fill out, if you will, completion is worth 30 grand. Then we gotta ask the question, is that really where the lead flow starts? Or how am I getting leads to the DOS sodo form? Are we posting on Instagram? Are we knocking on doors?
You know, are we doing some other sort of, advertising? Is there any step before the DOSA form? How are you getting leads there?
Dolly DeLong: Yeah. So I love this question so much ‘ I talk about this with other business owners. this is where I know where my, I analyze my marketing points a lot every quarter, and I know where my traffic is coming from. So, listeners, I know I did a YouTube video on this, and I’ll even link it, but my traffic sources are all organic, so I, I rely heavily on SEO, through long form content.
I do paid ads also through Google. Google ads and then, Pinterest is all organic and ’cause of the visuals and then Instagram and so those are my sources. according to Google Analytics.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Cool. So I heard Instagram posts, you know, real stories. We’ll put
Dolly DeLong: Oh, and Facebook. And
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Facebook. All right, so Instagram, Facebook, organic, will and Pinterest. We’ll pause there. And so let’s say that for simplicity, each of those just represents 25% of your organic trough traffic that converts, right? It’s never going to be that clean.
So if we’ve said. A dubs sodo form, you know, fill out is worth 30 grand to me. Great. And then we’re looking at the traffic and saying each of those organic activities is like 25% of like my dubs, sodo, you know, form fill outs. Then I’m just gonna take 30 grand and divide that by 25%, which is, you know, times 0.25 on my calendar right now.
Dolly DeLong: I
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Sorry, did I say calendar? I meant calculator. Um, 75, 70 $500. and this is obviously super an oversimplified, exercise, but the point here is, is that okay, now I know that. Every time I write a long form post, and of course, you’re going to have long form posts that have legs and continue to convert for you because, you know, they’re just hitting all the, buttons as far as SEO goes, and some won’t, right?
So the math will get a little more complicated, but let’s just say great. I’m crushing it with long form posts. I know now that every time I write a post, it’s gonna be worth like several thousand dollars to me. And so there is. That revenue per lead, and we’ve backed it all the way up to how much a lead is worth.
And so then we just do those actions to get more leads because we know they’re worth something. Now, why did we go through all of these calculations? It’s because when we turn on Facebook and Instagram ads, we want to do so in, you know, in an educated way that puts us in the best place to profit from it.
So if we know. Let’s say our leads are making one lead could be worth $3,000,
then great. I now know that I can pay $2,000 for a lead. And this is just a crazy example, right? In my online course creator space, it works out to be like, oh, I know leads are worth $50 to my business. I can pay $10 per lead, and that is the favorable place where we wanna start just by doing some math and making sure that, yeah, our organic offer is selling profitably and hopefully with a lot of profit.
And then backing up those numbers, doing some conservative calculations to figure out how much a lead is worth, and then looking at the ad situation and thinking, can we acquire a lead for. Less than the lead is worth. And then we have a wonderful profit situation per lead and that’s, that’s how we don’t end up with the bad taste in our mouth.
That’s how we don’t end up with, oh my gosh, I’ve been there. Like, I spent at least, you know, $7,000 on ads the wrong way when I was back, you know, marketing myself or teaching Chinese and it, it’s a horrible feeling to look at your ad spend. It’s like you don’t even wanna look at the bill from Meta and then you do, and you’re like, oh shoot.
How am I gonna pay this? Did this even work? I don’t think it’s working, but I hope it will work. Maybe I’ll leave the ads on. And it’s look, I’m all for praying and hope, but praying, I hope or prayer is not a good Facebook ad
Dolly DeLong: Yeah, I love that. I love, I know. No, that’s also another good quote as well. Like you have to really dig into your data points and see, What is already working for you organically, which is just a reminder to listeners to have a really good, just to know your top of funnel marketing strategy and, like where your organic traffic is coming in from.
And you all know I preach about that, creating a system for that. and so once you. Figured that out. And once you have a good system established, I’m hearing then now might be a good time to consider meta ads for your business. So my next question kind of merging from that, ’cause I know we covered a lot, is let’s say a service-based business owner who doesn’t have a digital product, but is a service-based business owner, like photographer, for example. when would it be wise for them to hire out an a ads manager versus doing it themselves?
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: You reach a point as a business owner where. You know, how much your hours are worth, your time is worth, you know, and so, you know, just do a calculation like my business makes X amount, amount of profit. You know, we could look at like the, the net profit and then how many hours I have to put in to running the business for it to make that amount.
And I arrive at a number that says my time is worth, you know. $300 an hour. Okay? And so it makes sense in the beginning when our time isn’t worth so much yet to go ahead and pay the ignorance tax, find the course on meta ads, you know, and run our own Facebook and meta ads. But you reach a point as your revenue grows, where it doesn’t make sense anymore for you personally to spend the time.
Looking through and doing all the Facebook ad management things, each day so that your ads stay running well because you know that you could be doing things in your business that only you can do to continue to grow further. ’cause, you know, we become, you get it, Dolly, like we become the bottleneck of our businesses really quick when they grow,
Dolly DeLong: yes. Yeah.
I 100% agree with that. And I, I am like the world’s every, I’m sure I’m not unique, unique in this, but sometimes I feel like I’m one. One of the most stubborn business owners I know because I’m just like, I have to know how to do everything. I have to have my hand in everything. I have to be in control.
And I’m sure God’s that’s cute, Dolly. That’s so cute that you’re that way. but I’m like, I have to know, I have to be in control. but. Once I relinquished control, like I finally relinquished control for Google Ads and it has been one of the best decisions for myself. And, I finally relinquished control for having a bookkeeper because I was like the bottleneck for that.
So, listeners, the reason why I’m sharing that is because. Relinquishing control might be like one step at one decision at a time. You can’t just relinquish it all. Um, or maybe you can, but I can’t. And so you have my permission to just do one step at a time and it’s okay. That’s normal.
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: It can be a journey, you know? But we are not, as business owners, we’re not the first to travel down this road. It’s if all of these big businesses, like I, I think of the business, the biggest businesses, you know, amazon.com, right? Or, or think of like FedEx or like these other businesses, if they can grow, it’s like the person in charge of that business does not know what every employee is doing.
You know, they, they’ve. Figured out systems they’ve, and we can do that too. So you have to figure out when it’s just not worth your time. And of course there’s things personal preference that can change that equation a bit like some people really like to run ads, so they want to do that themselves for their business.
Others hate running ads and they want to get that off of their plate as soon as possible. So as long as things are already profitable in the business, then you can decide personally if you want to. Go it alone a little longer, or like you said, relinquish control and hire an ads manager. But we definitely want to remain in the context of profitability in the business.
The business can’t afford this if it’s like an aspirational reach to get an ads manager. It’s just not time yet, and we don’t want that extra stress while we’re growing our business.
Dolly DeLong: Thank you for mentioning that because like also thank you for mentioning the fact like hope and prayer is not going to like be the best business strategy. yes, it’s important, but like you also have to have the data and the profitability showcase. Hey, you are ready for this next step. And it may take.
Business owner, listener, it may take you a little bit longer and that’s okay. Like we are all gonna go on our own, timeline. I was just, I was just posting a story about this on Instagram stories. And I was like, I feel like I’m going at a snail’s pace in comparison to everybody else online.
And it’s so frustrating, but I have to remind myself like it’s gonna, it’s okay. Like I’m actually further, I. Ahead than I was. Like, if I allow myself to reflect like a year ago, two years ago, I’m, so, I would never have guessed like where I would be right now, but I, it still feels like a snail’s pace. I don’t know how you feel about that, but
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: I mean, whenever we’re on Instagram, it’s it’s a blessing and a curse because so many ideas. But at the same time, I fall into the comparison trap really easily. Um, you had no idea I was gonna say this Dolly, but like, I just wanna encourage the listener right now, the. E best shortcut is find somebody who’s further down the line than you.
If you’re like wondering, oh, is my business profitable enough? Or like, how do I really crunch these numbers? Find somebody. Like Dolly and be like, Hey, can I like pay you for an hour of your time? And like then you can kind of look at, since you’ve already traveled this path, you can look at my numbers, my revenue, like all my packages so to speak, and reorganize some things and tell me like, is it time to take whatever step that you’re contemplating taking?
Like that is the unlock hands down. Like for me in the past years. Anytime I’ve looked for somebody who I could consult with that knew what they were doing and that it was in the same line of business that I was, especially if they had a very similar business structure, that that was the best way. Like I always would pay that money because otherwise I’m paying in my own time, my own stress, figuring it out for myself.
So if you’re listening right now and you’re like, this is the side, this is your side, fine,
Dolly.
Dolly DeLong: I love it. I also like. Agree with that. I finally, stopped paying what you called the ignorance tax last year. I was like, I’m so sick and tired of just like using up my time and trying to figure it out on my own. And I hired out a business coach who is like ahead of me and she is very familiar with the online and service ’cause that’s kind of like where my business is.
And so it was so life giving and I’m like, wow. I, I. Making a little bit of progress, ’cause I listened. I actually listened. so yes, I, this has been a great conversation and, and listeners, I, I hope it’s encouraging to you, to not feel so lost. And just to, again, like Kujo is encouraging us all is to make sure we’re being profitable in our business and to know the numbers of our business.
Before we step into ads, meta ads, Instagram ads, and I know you have a great resource around meta ads. Can you, can you share with my audience what it is and I’ll share it in the show notes?
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: Absolutely. So. We didn’t even get to talk about what happens when you run ads, but let’s just say that the goal of running ads I stand for is bringing in the highest quality lead at the lowest cost possible. And you touched on messaging earlier in our conversation today, Dolly. And so. This is a course that I have, it’s called the ad testing Cheat Code.
And what it is, is it’s my same framework that I use day in and day out, especially in a new client’s ad account to bring their lead costs as low as possible while still getting a good, quality lead. And it’s based on, if you can visualize the Olympics of last year, it’s based on. Well, somebody has to win, right?
And the person that wins is the best performer. So how do they do it? In sports competitions, they usually have, or maybe you’re thinking of March Madness, you know, which it’s coming up soon, but they have a bunch of contestants or teams at the beginning and then they are pitted against each other and whoever wins goes on to the next round.
And ads can be just like that. You put your ad copy first, you make some various versions. You run that for several days, you have a winner, and then you take a, some of your visuals, you know, and then you. Pair those with the winning ad copy, run that for longer. And you have a winning ad and you just go step by step methodically so that at the end of this you have a handful of ads that are doing the best work possible for your business and stressing you out in the least way possible.
And so this is a course, it’s, $37 and you have a code and a coupon dolly, so anybody that wants it. Because I believe everyone should have the best quality lead at the lowest lead cost possible, can have it for just $1.
Dolly DeLong: Wow, you all, I will put it in the show notes and then, how can people find you and connect with you and if they’re like, okay. I know I’m profitable in my business. I wanna work with a Facebook ads manager. How can people work with you?
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie: The best way is just come on to my podcast. That is the Art of online Business. It’s on YouTube and it’s primarily on Apple Podcasts and Spotify too. And then just in the show notes down there, you can see a link to my website and you can fill out an intake form there and, we can talk about ads and if it’s a good fit, like you get on a phone call with me.
We look at your business quick and we decide if it’s a good fit and if it’s not, you can trust me that I will tell you because the best scenario, you know, we only have, I believe, we only live once. We only have one reputation. It’s good to keep it, to keep it good and serve people the right way. And that’s all I have to say.
Dolly DeLong: Awesome. It was so nice meeting you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. listeners again, uh, feel free to go and use the show notes and please check out that course for $1, $1. You all that’s such, that’s. Cheaper than a, like a than a, I can’t even think a coffee. Most coffees now are like three or $4.
So, um, I think that’s a great deal. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time, with your wisdom and, everybody go follow Kujo. Okay. until then, I will talk to you all next week with a brand new systems and workflow related podcast episode and have a streamlined and magical week. You amazing muggle you and.
I will talk to you all next week. Bye.
