134: The Five Components of an Aligned Business with Annemie Tonken on The Systems & Workflow Magic Podcast

Dolly DeLong: Hello, and welcome to another Systems and Workflow Magic podcast episode. I am your systems and workflow BFF and guide, Dolly DeLong. Today, I’m thrilled to share that Annamie Tonkin is on the podcast. So, a little bit about Annamie. She has been a professional photographer since 2013. 10, you all, that is a long time. That’s incredible. She has a lot of great foundations to share with us. She is a respected educator focused on business systems and strategies that help creative entrepreneurs run profitable, sustainable businesses they love. And she’s the host of this, so it can’t be that hard. A top-rated weekly business podcast for photographers and the creator of simple sales. The system thousands of photographers use worldwide to create in-person sales, level income, and service in an automated and experienced speaker is known for its fluff-free content and memorable metaphors. So, I’m excited to chat with you. Welcome to the show.

Annemie Tonken: Oh, Dolly. Thanks so much. Yeah, we have much in common in photography, systems, and workflows, so I have no doubt this will be an entertaining chat. I’m looking forward to it.

Dolly DeLong: I’m looking forward to it too. I’m going to throw a wrench. I didn’t prepare you with this question, but while reading your bio, I was like, wow, she started in 2010. So, what got you started in photography?

Annemie Tonken: Oh, I have the standard story. I’d always enjoyed photography but wasn’t particularly attached to it, and I had a whole other career trajectory. I was actually in the middle. That’s not true. I was I, my first son was born, and my love of photography intensified in a big way because, of course, I had this new subject, and all I wanted to do all day was take photos of him. And then, of course, friends started to see those photos, and they were in a season where they were having kids, so they asked me to photograph their kids. And then when my second son was born. I was actually in the process of going through a master’s program that I wasn’t enjoying. And I was like, Oh, I don’t know what I want to be when I grow up. And at some point, somebody said to me, you take great photos, and you know, here we are 15 years later, that idea took root, and then that was all I wanted. And I chased after it hard.

Dolly DeLong: I love that so much. Thanks for letting me ask you that question.

Annemie Tonken: of course. I’m

Dolly DeLong: I’m used to answering that, but I was. I’ve never heard your story, so I’m inquisitive. Another question I have for you got you into being an educator? Because I know not all photographers necessarily start with, I’m going to educate other photographers. Like, how, what got you interested

Annemie Tonken: Yeah. Well, I mean, that could be a whole conversation unto itself. The short version of the story is that I had been in photography for probably seven or eight years. I started a small family photography-focused conference with two friends called The Family Narrative. We ran that it’s well, as we record that they have posy. One of my co-founders runs it independently and hosts it as we speak. I have a massive FOMO happening. But this is the first year it hasn’t been the three of us. We did it together for six years. You know, we had eight different versions of the conference, and that was amazing. When we first started bringing in other educators and creating that ee, right? That container for that, that process. As the first couple of years went by, I was doing a lot of business and money planning, and I relayed it. Then, these people came to speak, and I started to feel like I had a fair amount to contribute. I got to try my hand at speaking at one of our conferences, and I loved it. I also got a response from our attendees that was very validating and kind of at the same time that was happening. I was thinking a lot about what my future career path looked like. I had been through a pretty traumatic divorce, and then I had to provide for the whole family with just my income. And that had taken a lot of effort to level up the business side. And then I had ankle surgery that called into question, Like, you know, what if something happens to you, and how are you going to continue to provide? So, this was a big season of my life where I had some money and rude awakenings, and I was like, okay, I have to have a plan in place that covers all different or as many other potential situations as possible. And then also just that idea that I’m a family photographer. I crawl a lot on the ground after toddlers. And I feel like at some point, there’s going to come a time when I’m like, you know what? My knees don’t want to do this anymore. Or, you know, I want to travel more or whatever. So I was looking, it was just that confluence of events where it was like, I was thinking about it. I was enjoying the teaching space. I realized that throughout, at that point, close to a decade of photography experience, I had a fair amount to share. And then, and then I just started, it’s like photography. You don’t need an invitation. You don’t need anything other than permission from yourself and that sort of like faith in yourself that I’m, you know what, I’m going to do it. And even if I’m risking. It’s looking stupid, or nobody will pay attention or anything else. I will dive in, and that’s how it happened.

Dolly DeLong: I hear you say pivoting a little in your photography business is okay.

Annemie Tonken: If you’re not constantly pivoting, you will probably wind up in a spot where something forces you to pivot. I think that keeping a close eye is one of the reasons when I talk about what I try to teach. It’s like a system. All that stuff is great, but building a business you love is essential. And it’s an evolving process. You have to keep an eye on what’s going on with you personally and in your life, what brings you joy, and all that sort of thing to keep the business moving, which segues a lot into what we’re talking about today with alignment. So I’m excited.

Dolly DeLong: Perfect segue. Okay, can I ask one more

Annemie Tonken: Sure. Of course.

Dolly DeLong: You’re like, I didn’t realize I’d be answering all your questions. What are you, Barbara Walters?

Annemie Tonken: It’s a podcast.

Dolly DeLong: Well, my question is, in this process, when did your podcast start? I know it has; I’ve heard many great things about it. It’s been around for a while. Um, what made you want to start the podcast?

Annemie Tonken: I was a podcast junkie, and I had launched a course, sort of the thing that I’m known for, and you mentioned it in the intro is the simple sales system. I have a course that goes along with that called the simple sales blueprint. And after I launched the course, I was looking for a way to sort of, you know, I mean, ultimately, it’s a marketing tool, but it’s not like I talk about simple sales all the time on the podcast. It’s just a way to Put yourself out there and get people to know who you are and all that sort of thing. And, because I was such a fan of podcasts, that one out over blogging, starting a YouTube channel, or anything like that. I was like, a podcast sounds excellent. And it turns out I love it. I love podcasting and being a guest on podcasts. I enjoy this format of just chatting. I imagine you have a similar story.

Dolly DeLong: Yeah, basically, long story short, my listeners know this. It took me two years to admit I wanted to start a podcast. I was too embarrassed, not embarrassed, but I thought, Oh, it’s overly saturated. Nobody’s going to want to listen to me. Nobody compared to everybody out there, but starting this podcast is a long time. So, it started in 2019, but it began in 2021. So I’m happy. I love podcasting. It’s a lot of fun. I’ve been able to connect with a lot of great business owners, such as yourself. I love connecting with other people and introducing myself to my audience. Experts who have gone before them. And it’s encouraging my listeners to hear, Hey, it’s okay. If you like to take a lot of, your business will be very multifaceted, and you’ll take a lot of pivots and turns. And it’s okay. You can figure it out. As your podcast says, this can’t be that hard. So, I do have to make your head feel huge right now. 

Annemie Tonken: Oh, 

Dolly DeLong: It was last year, and this is how I was introduced to you last year. I had a fellow photographer come to my house. I’m based in middle Tennessee. There, there are a lot of photographers. I feel like everywhere, but especially in Nashville. And so we were meeting together, just chatting, and she brought your name up, and she. I was going on and on about how unique your simple sales system program was,

Annemie Tonken: Oh, lovely.

Dolly DeLong: yes. And I was like, who is this woman? I need to check her out. And so anyways, that’s how I got introduced to you. I don’t know. And then we got connected. So, I was excited to have

Annemie Tonken: Oh, that’s amazing. I love that. Thank you for sharing.

Dolly DeLong: Of course. Yeah, let’s segway into you. You will discuss the five components of having an aligned business, so I will let you take it away.

Annemie Tonken: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. So alignment is one of those phrases that gets tossed around in many ways. People throw the word alignment, like, ” Oh, are you aligned? Whatever. And I always saw that word as being something Woo. You know what I mean? Like more, a little more loosey-goosey than had any practical application. And it’s funny; I ended up naming my business and podcast. This can’t be that hard, but I almost called it the practical photographer because I was, I just, that’s, it’s kind of the way that my business mind worked, even though. I am an artist and have many right-brain things regarding business. I like to be like, okay, let’s make a checklist, make this happen, and teach me what I need to know. So when people talk about alignment or have historically talked about alignment, I almost turn my ears off. I’m like, whatever that means. That doesn’t mean anything. But at some point, I had this sort of revelation. I had at this point, I was in the education world, and I had people coming to me regularly saying things like, I am having a problem finding clients, I am having a problem with my sales technique, or I’m having a problem with, you know, my branding, all kinds of different issues. When we worked backward from those problems and got to the root of the problem, something was often not in line. I was out of alignment with other components of the business. And as I realized that I needed to come back to this idea of alignment, take off my judgy hat, and put on my, how can we practically define alignment?

And when I was thinking about this, I felt that many things align physically, right? So you talk about the threads on a screw or a bottle cap., and I like the bottle cap metaphor just because we’ve all been in a situation where you’ve got a water bottle. You put water in there, then you try to put the lid on, and you can feel that it’s not quite threading, right? And you’re like, this lid isn’t working, right? It’s either it doesn’t fit. It’s the wrong lid, or it’s gotten warped in the dishwasher, or whatever the case may be. And you won’t take that full bottle and put it upside down in your gym bag. You know better because you know that a misaligned cap on a water bottle doesn’t work correctly. Suppose we apply that same concept to our businesses when something is out of alignment. You can feel it. You can feel that the gears are grinding a little bit. And I don’t think we give our clients enough credit or our potential clients enough credit for the fact that they can feel it, too.

When they come to you, they can sense that you are insecure about your prices or you are unsure how to answer a question they’ve asked about, like what’s going to happen if X, Y, Z; they can sense that something is off. And they may not speak it out loud. They may not say, you know what? I think something’s off here. You don’t seem confident. Nobody ever says that. Instead, they say something like, Oh, okay. Let me talk to my husband or like, Oh, that’s expensive. Or they retreat into the bushes, Homer Simpson or something. They ghost us. Right. Then the question is, okay, so if so many of these problems stem from a misalignment somewhere in our business, how can we get efficient about diagnosing where that misalignment happens? And that was where these five P’s came to my mind. I did a bunch of things. I reviewed my notes on many calls I had with people and conversations about their problems. And I broke it down into these five P’s. So I’m, does all of that make sense?

I can dive right in.

Dolly DeLong: I love it. I’m excited.  I’ll note it, too.

Annemie Tonken: Excellent. Okay. So when I think about your business, and you said it before, my podcast tagline is Bill is helping photographers build a profitable, sustainable business they love. So profitability. It’s a business like yours that needs profitability. That’s just like basic math. It’s not as complicated as we like to make it. However, the more complex piece is sustainability. You can make money, but if you’re killing yourself trying to do it, that’s not sustainable in the long term. So profitability and sustainability are key. And I think that many people hear that and think those are the two important ones. But that Profitable, sustainable business that you love. I feel like it’s three equal, equally essential pieces to the puzzle. And the one you love is where we’re going to start, and we’re going to start with preferences. So, when you start a business, I know you work with business owners of all kinds. You don’t go into business with this idea that I will run a company I hate. I have always dreamed of being a photographer, graphic designer, or sound engineer, whatever your creative or even uncreative business will be. You have this vision of what it will be like to run your own business. It probably involves being able to take time off when you want to and making money. Maybe it consists of employing people and giving others a pleasing workplace. I hope it consists of delivering a high-quality product to your target audience, like all these different things. We have these daydreams as we get into the process of starting a business. And what’s sad is that many people very quickly Get into the business of starting a business, and they begin to realize, Oh, I have to do this. I have to do this. I have to do this. And some of those things are real. You have to start keeping track of your money and do payroll or whatever the case may be. But then there are pieces of it that we begin to see other people a few steps ahead of us in business—doing whatever. And that can be the person who’s here. How do you make six figures as such and such? Or, you have to run your business this particular way if you want to be profitable. And because we’re new, we have those butterflies in our bellies about how I will make this work. We inevitably start to take on other people’s definitions of what is required, and there’s nothing wrong with it. I’m not in any way judging it. I certainly did it. I did it for too long in my business and think it’s necessary.

You have to be open to what’s working for other people. And so I don’t think that’s necessarily an avoidable or completely avoidable phase of the business. What happens is that many people end up in a place far removed from what they envisioned when they first started. They’re running a company they don’t love, and everything cascades from that. If you’re like, Oh, I have to go full time if I’m going to be successful on this, but you always wanted this to be like a side hustle. Then your heart is probably not in the right place, whatever. So, when we start with preferences, they can include everything from the kind of people you want to work with tin the type of subject matter you want to work with, the sort of hours you want to keep, the kind of brand you wish to have, the feeling you want your potential clients to have when they work with you, and the types of transactions. All those different things are preferences and must be the guiding principles. Star in your business if you will make everything else work in the long term. What I love about small businesses is that you can build any business. There are people in such weird niches that I can’t believe that’s business, but if you put it together and have an audience, you can make it work. You have to start there with your preferences.

Dolly DeLong: I love that. I do want to say this to my audience. I feel like I have to come. What is the word? I don’t know what the word is that the phrase is, but I will admit that I feel like I’ve been very fortunate with my own business because I started as a photographer—first of all, a jack of all trades, like I did everything. It took me a while to narrow down my niche to family photography. But I will admit, I had the luxury of my husband being our provider. He works full time, and it made me think, okay, what do I want to do? And I realized I wanted to tell everyone. I know if you’re listening, and you’re like, I don’t have that luxury, Dolly. I have to figure it out right now. And so, I think there is still a way to figure out your preferences. When you are not in that spot, like I want you to know, I genuinely believe you can still set your preferences wherever you fall. I just felt like I had to admit that to people, you are like, you can still set these preferences.

Annemie Tonken: Yeah, and the thing is, when you build a business around your preferences, that doesn’t mean that you are unwilling to, or required to, in some cases, take on work that doesn’t align with that. But when you know, okay, I’m taking this job, even though it doesn’t align, I’m doing it basically for the paycheck, right? I’m doing this for the money. That’s okay. There’s no judgment there. However, when you are, when you get clear about your preferences and your parameters, which is P number two that I’m going to dive into here in a second, then at least your messaging, branding, website, pricing—all of those different things—can be built around what you’re aiming for because it’s rarely possible for someone to get straight out of the gate and just like, Oh, I’m getting all perfect clients for me. Chances are, most people don’t even know what an ideal client for them is when they first start. But when you have clarity around your preferences and parameters, at least you’re building a business you will enjoy once you get there. Yeah, let’s talk about the differences between preferences and parameters. Do you have a question?

Dolly DeLong: Yeah, no, that was, like, where do parameters

Annemie Tonken: Yeah. Yeah.

Dolly DeLong: to, like, blend those two.

Annemie Tonken: Sure. And they, they are. They’re kind of two sides of the same coin. So if preferences are like, this is what I want. This is my dream. This is, you know, the goal parameters are like the reality check that comes in and says, okay, great. So you want this fancy studio downtown, and it’s like big windows in the front, and everything will be, you have this picture in your mind. But right now, you do not have the cash flow for that, or you do not live close enough, or whatever the case may be, or you have, it can be like little kids at home that you don’t have daycare for, or whatever. Those are your parameters. Parameters come down to a combination. I always use two words: your resources, the money that you have, or not the money, the time that you have, and then I also like to say your special skills or knowledge. Those are resources as well, but also your restrictions. So the time that you don’t have the money that you need to make the skills that maybe you don’t yet have, like maybe you want to have this amazing studio, and you’re a photographer and you neither own lights, nor can afford them, nor know how to use them. Okay, you can work toward that. That’s great. That’s your vision. That can be your preference for the future. So now you have a priority about, Oh, this is what I’m going to work toward, but you don’t have that right now. So, at the moment, you have to build a business that works for both your preferences and your parameters, but getting clear on what those parameters are, running your numbers and knowing what your numbers are, figuring out what, materials, and all the different things that you have at your disposal. Making a list of those can be a clarifying process that gives you a sense of, okay, this is what I have to work with. Now, how do I build a business backward from that? Does that make sense?

Dolly DeLong: It makes sense. And a real-life example that just came to mind for me was when I was transitioning to just doing family photography. One of my dreams—it hasn’t come true yet—is to own a studio. But it is attached to my house. So it’s like proximity.

I’m still available for my family, but my clients can come and meet me. Um, it’s me renting it out all over Nashville. And so, until then, what can I do to Continue to make that dream happen or build towards that dream and emulate the looks I’m going for? I continue to rent from spaces. I will take the time to rent from spaces that emulate that, and then I am also trying to make a plan with my bookkeeper.

Okay, how can I realistically save towards this? Again, I am keeping my parameters in line with my vision. Is that an example that is exactly what I was thinking of? I hope I’m in alignment with what you’re talking about. Okay.

Annemie Tonken: Well, and so on, that is an excellent example because let’s take the opposite. Let’s say that you start your business with this vision of having a home studio, and it will be like you get to be at home until three seconds before the client arrives. You can pop into the studio and turn on the lights, whatever. And you’re like, I can’t afford a studio right now. So, instead, I will photograph on location in parks all around town and whatever. That’s not necessarily so far off the mark that you would be attracting the wrong clients or you would hate your work, but it could be the sort of thing where you say, well, I can’t do that right now. Let’s say, okay, I will make it even more niche. Let’s say you wanted to do studio newborn stuff, wrapping babies in fancy things, whatever. And because you don’t have a studio, you start doing lifestyle family portraits out and about town. When the time came for you to build that studio, you would have to find many new clients. Yeah. And you’d have to, you know, buy a bunch of equipment that you didn’t have, and you would have to start changing up all of your branding and everything else. So, that would be out of alignment. Now, I will say that your preferences and parameters are not static. I talked about this before but over time. You may find that I like doing location-based family work. And you know what? That idea about doing babies, baskets, and stuff is now out the window. And that’s okay. Once you’re like, once the ball is rolling in your business, sometimes you have to take some time to correct it. But I think checking in with your preferences and parameters is essential over time. You may need to make more money or less or have your kids start school, and then suddenly, you have a lot more time to dedicate to work. Those things change, and your business should be able to expand and contract around that. You have to keep an eye on it. I recommend auditing these things a couple of times a year, at minimum once a year, to maintain a sense of whether I am still doing things that light me up. And I love it because if not, it’s great. As you said, let’s start pivoting and figure out how to go from A to B.

Dolly DeLong: I love that so much. So keep a pulse on everything. That’s good. Okay. Let’s talk about products.

Annemie Tonken: Yeah. Before we do, let’s say that those two things, your preferences and parameters, are on one side of this equation. So they’re the first things that you look at. They’re the first things that you determine. Based on that, you’ll be able to see where your business falls or where your ideal business should fall on a spectrum that I think of from the hand h, high end. So, high prices but deficient volume. The business model goes down to the high volume and lower price point at the end of the spectrum. So, if we’re talking about restaurants, it’s your nine-course white linen. They have one person or couple sit at a table all night.

And they buy 200 bottles of wine down to the drive-thru. So fast food, and they’re probably making even more money than the person running the tiny, excellent French restaurant. Still, they’re doing it in a completely different way. So it’s important to know that both models and every kind of model in between can work, but they have to be intentional about how they do that. So you’re not going to go through the drive-through and buy a 200 bottle of Cabernet; you’re not going to go to the high-end French restaurant and expect to stand at a counter to order your food. Like it’s just, they’re just different. So, businesses have to be built that way.

And that’s where these—the second set of peas—come in. Products are your offer. So again, let’s talk about whether it is a supersized diet Coke, a fancy bottle of wine, a fancy cocktail, or something like that. That product can be your main offer or any of your ancillary offers. It could be physical products that you sell. Again, I’m a photographer and teach photographers, so I often use photography-based references, but this can be extrapolated to any business in the photography world. You’ll probably also have some service offers, if that’s what you mean. I come to your house and do X, Y, and Z. It takes an hour and a half; this is what you get at the end. That’s a product. But if you then, after the fact, sell photo albums, that’s also a product.

Dolly DeLong: Gotcha.

Annemie Tonken: Those things need to align with this business model where it falls on that spectrum. You’re not trying to sell 200 bottles of Cabernet to somebody who’s here for a quickie, are you?

Dolly DeLong: Like a quick milkshake. 

Annemie Tonken: Yeah, right. Exactly. If I were a headshot photographer and somebody was coming in literally for, like, I need one headshot because I’m speaking at a conference. I need, like, I work for a bank, and somebody needs to photograph me against a black background, and I have a 250 budget for that. I won’t be there then, like stepping into my office. Would you like to look at my album selection? That is totally out of alignment. It’s not going to work. You’ll be frustrated because they’ll say no every single time, but that same person may have a family they want to be photographed and want the whole kit and caboodle. You have to keep those offers in alignment with your work, so those are products. And then there’s pricing, which goes hand in hand. I like to choose the product piece first, then look at the pricing and ensure it aligns.

If you have ever been shopping on 5th Avenue in New York or Rodeo Drive in LA or something like that, you know that going into a store on one of those streets is not going to be like going to a bargain bin in the If. If there were people who like to shop at those places, this wouldn’t be. It isn’t for me anymore. When I was preparing to talk about this one time, when I was going to be giving a talk presentation on stage, I looked up. I think it was a Versace. I went to Versace’s website to try and find the cheapest T-sL.A.rt I could find. And it was over 500. And it was a cotton T-shirt, right? So they’re not saying this L.A.tton t-shirt was made by hand and blah, blah, blah.

Nope. It’s just that it says Versace or has a Versace tag. But because they know their audience, they know that the audience wants to spend money on the brand and for the perception of wealth, luxury, and all that sort of thing. If they were to take that t-shirt that costs them no more than somebody who’s a buyer for any other store, Target, or whatever, the cost would be the same, but the markup would be much higher.

Ultimately, Versace is spending a ton of money on ad placements in extremely fancy magazines and billboards in Times Square, and they’re paying famous people to be in those magazine images and all that versus having some sort of. I don’t even know what they’re called, but the models for the target ads are people who live in that town, so it’s just a different model.

There’s nothing wrong with either. It’s just two different things. And when you’re building your own business, you have to think, where will I set my prices? There’s math involved. You have to make sure that your numbers work, but beyond that, your markup may need to be increased because you’re targeting a market that. They will see that as out of alignment if you don’t charge more. I’m going back to the, like, they can feel that something isn’t quite right.  It’s if you walk into a high-end restaurant, and they’re like, Oh, lovely, step right this way to your table. And then you open the menu, and everything on the menu is five to 7.

You’re going to be like, what are they doing? Like, where are they getting the food? I’m not going to order the sushi here. It’s going to, I’m going to be sick.

Dolly DeLong: I know. Exactly. Yeah.

Annemie Tonken: yeah.

Dolly DeLong: My question for you is, I feel like a lot of my audience gets so hung up on pricing, and it’s even taken me years to understand how to price myself. And it feels like it’s. It’s like emotional baggage. You have to get through your emotional baggage, and then you have to get through whatever narratives you grew up with as a child and whatever, but do you teach specifically on just pricing? I’m just curious.

Annemie Tonken: I do. I do. One of the things that I try to avoid is something that so many people say, and I’ve had to train myself not to say it: the whole idea of pricing yourself. Because you’re not selling yourself, You are. But I think that’s one of its emotional pieces, especially for anyone creative or a type of business; I typically point to phrases like, no, you’re worth, you can’t charge enough to accommodate your worth like you are worthy, whatever. So I try always to price my services or price my products. Let’s at least take that one step to disassociate ourselves from the process to give ourselves the gift of not feeling that much emotional involvement.

Yeah, I do teach it. And I like to run. I’m huge on it. Let’s run your numbers and see what they are because that’s where we can start. Then, we can begin to unpack the emotional baggage around us. You know how you will make those numbers work. Again, when someone thinks about that spectrum from the drive-through drive-through French restaurant, I hope it empowers them to remember that all kinds of different businesses can work.

You can if you’re someone who. I just literally could never say it costs a thousand dollars. I feel like I can’t do it. I’ve practiced, tried, and gone to my therapist, and I can’t do it. Then, build a business. That’s a higher volume. It’s possible to make those numbers work. You have to figure out where. That constellation of your preferences and parameters fits.

Dolly DeLong: I love that. I, Listers, hope you’re taking loads of notes. Like seriously, I hope you’re taking loads of notes. I hope you will re-listen to this. Thank you for letting me insert and ask about the pricing because, you all know, I will make sure to put all the links in the show notes so you can learn. That’s something that I feel like a lot of my audience is stuck on, just like pricing, and I feel like so many episodes of this podcast revolve around money, and people love that. And it’s, I’m like, I think it’s just because. It’s just emotional layers with what type of work they do. What, anyway, so

Annemie Tonken: yeah. I grew up in a generation where, like me, I guess I didn’t grow up. My parents are of a generation where they don’t talk about money. It’s considered rude. And so I’m guessing that many of us came up in households where much scarcity was being spewed outwardly, or it was just not discussed. And so I do think that, and again, that’s like a whole different bag of worms, can of worms, but it is, but it is one of those things that we all have to Get through. And I think that’s why people love it. When somebody is, do you want to talk about money? Do you want actually to talk about the nuts and bolts of this? And people are like, Oh my gosh, thank you. I need help.

Dolly DeLong: I also have realized through the years, like whatever you’re thinking, your perception about money is you shouldn’t project that on another person because they probably don’t, are not worried about something that you are constantly concerned about.

Annemie Tonken: Yeah.

Dolly DeLong: I must remind myself about that with my photography clients because I serve clients at a different income level than I am.

And so I always have to remind myself, you don’t have to downplay the packages, like, Oh, you don’t have to pay this much. Because that’s how I grew up, like looking for a deal or just, so I’m just like, okay, I can’t communicate like that because what you were saying puts a thought in their mind.

Does she know what she’s doing?

Annemie Tonken: yeah. And the thing is, there are people out there who, I mean, of course, there are people out there. I’m sure it sounds like we’re both of them, where money is a significant factor in the decision-making process at this level. Money is a factor for almost everyone. I feel like there are a few people in the world who have the luxury of literally not having to worry about money at all.

But at all. There is a pain tolerance for a luxury purchase on most levels. But that’s going to be different based on a whole bunch of other factors. Still, there are plenty of people out there for whom a, let’s say, I’m just going to speak to the photography community out there, a 2 000 portrait session isn’t that the money piece of it only contributes to their validation of your future.

Credibility as a photographer, but beyond that, that’s not the issue. So if they say, Oh, I will have to think about it. That’s a lot of money. It’s often like a stalling technique. And then, what I always like to do and what I think is a helpful exercise and anyone can use this, not just photographers, but okay.

If I get over myself, let’s assume they don’t; they’re not worried about money. What’s the next thing they might be worried about? So is it they’re afraid that you’re not going to be able to wrangle their ornery four-year-old, or you, they’re worried that like you’re going to photograph them as the last photographer did and make them feel terrible about the way they look or whatever the case may be.

If you have the most critical problem on your client’s list, speak directly to that. Money is money. They’re either going to agree to pay your rates, or they’re not going to agree to pay your rates. But if you can make them feel confident about whatever else they’re unsatisfied with, they’re much more willing to part with the money.

Dolly DeLong: Wow.

Annemie Tonken: Sidebar. I have one more P that I want to talk about.

Dolly DeLong: right. Let’s talk about Elastope.

Annemie Tonken: Yeah. Yeah, okay. So we’ve got our preferences and parameters. That is the pause point, where we determine where we fall on that spectrum. From there, we put together our offers. So our products are pricing. And the final one is policies. And this is one of those things where every business has policies, but your policies are like their own kind of dog whistle about your business.

So if you have a tough time putting policies out there in the world, if you’re like, I don’t like to work with a contract because it feels like a lot of pressure, you are signaling to your potential clients that you will be nervous. You’re not, you’re not. You’re to create a contract and say this is what it is. I feel like at a fundamental level everybody, needs a services contract,t a liability, you know, those like all that sort of stuff that gets legigetsbut but does it signal this thissignalmacy piece to the puzzle, what’s contained in your contract, and in all the other places that we have policies.

In your FAQs and emails that you send to somebody after they book or before they book, where you talk about like, this is my process, and these are the. And I’m putting this in air quotes in case you’re just listening to this. These are the rules. If you communicate, depending on what you say about those things, you are, it’s like another way of talking about your brand. So if you’ve got very client-friendly policies, an unlimited number of reshoots, unlimited edits, or you can, here’s my phone number. You can text me anytime, day or night, on the weekend, or whatever the case. Then I hope you have a brand and a price point that is through the roof, right?

This is where if you are a lister in Hollywood, and you’ve got people who are literally on call at your beck and call for everything, that’s because You’ve got the budget to, like, all those people are making a very comfy six figures. After all, they’re willing to carry your umbrella.

So that’s at that end of the policy spectrum. If you charge very little and have those policies, that’s out of alignment. If you’re charging very little and you’re like, this is the time you need to show up. This is how much time you’re allotted. This is how you submit a support ticket if you need it.

And you put up a lot more boundaries. And that’s not to say you’re being rude. It’s just like, here’s the rules of engagement. If you’re looking to pay very little, you will have to work with my rules, and that’s in alignment. So again, if you are charging, let’s say you’re charging a lot, but you put these like vital parameters around everything.

Now, if you’ve got a line of people around the block who are like, I’ll work with you, whatever, then you get to be a diva and be like, don’t call me. I’ll call you. And you had better not be three seconds late, but assume you aren’t. Then, if you’re that person who’s charging a lot and you are hyper, if you’re 10 minutes late to your session, I’m canceling, you’re going to lose your clients.

Like they’re going to be like, what? I’m paying you a lot of money. So again, either of those can work. You have to make sure it’s in alignment with the business that you’ve built. Sorry,

Dolly DeLong: I love this. I’m so sorry we went way over our scheduled time.

Annemie Tonken: sorry.

Dolly DeLong: No, I’m sorry. I kept on asking you questions, but thank you so much. As we wrap up, I want to remind listeners that everything mentioned in this episode iwill be n the show notes. But I want to encourage listeners to read and listen to this podcast episode, especially my listeners who are photographers and who are navigating their businesses.

Like, This was gold. I want you to know I 

Annemie Tonken: Oh, thanks. 

Dolly DeLong: I took your class, which was encouraging to hear. So, do you mind sharing with my listeners how people can connect with you, find you, and work with you? I know you have something for my audience as well.

Annemie Tonken: I do. I do. So yeah, the thing I’ve got for you guys, and I’ll lead with that, is a quiz. It’s like an eight-question quiz, giving you a result without needing to put in any information. But I’ve been referencing that spectrum of businesses, from the high volume, low end to the low volume, high end. I have a quiz that asks a handful of questions about how you like to work, giving insight into where you fall on that spectrum. If you decide to submit your information, you get more of a deep dive and a little masterclass, mini class sort of thing on that. Process itself. So, for that quiz, I just made your listeners a page of their own. So it’s this, but it can’t be that hard. com slash, Dolly. And then everything else to connect with me is just under the, this can’t be that hard brand. So this can’t be that hard. com where this can’t be that hard on Instagram. And, yeah, I would love to get to meet your people.

Dolly DeLong: Yeah. Tell us more about your podcast.

Annemie Tonken: Oh, sure. You got the tagline in great detail, so it is a business podcast for photographers, but I have many creatives in general. Listen to it. We talk about systems and strategies. You’re probably not far off the mark if you like Dolly’s show. We take our particular tack on that.

Dolly DeLong: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. I  appreciate you taking the time to educate us. I look forward to you connecting more with everyone. Please DM us and let us know what points you enjoyed from this episode listener. So I’m holding you accountable, listener. Please do that. Remember that a new podcast episode following Monday will be about systems and workflow. Until then, stay streamlined and magical. Thank you, Amazing Muggle. I will talk to you next week. Bye.